Would you vote for David Koresh?

Would you vote for David Koresh?

 

Our little discussions on leadership, authority and Christianity have some direct and far reaching implications beyond the navel gazing that a lot of us enjoy doing. Those implications are coming to bear upon the U.S. as we get into the full swing of choosing the next president. The President of the U.S. is supposed to be a servant of the people and be accountable to the people while representing their best interests and while executing the laws of the land and the affairs of the nation. He is the major leader of our country.

Lately there has been a fair amount of attention given to the religious beliefs of those who are vying for the highest office in the free world. G.W. Bush never made a secret of his evangelical beliefs and born-again status and seemed to gain a certain amount of status from that fact. G.W. is no longer as well-liked, so it is interesting to see how this plays out as other candidates run for office.

Mitt Romney has been drawing a lot of attention for his religious orientation, namely that he is a Mormon or a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) or as they prefer it nowadays, simply the Church of Christ. I have no idea how the original denomination feels about their name being associated with this group. In a prior post, I gave a link to a story by and about some ex-Mormons. It really is a worthwhile read as it sheds light on Mormon history, tradition and practices. Most people in the country have very little knowledge about the LDS church beyond the Osmonds, the Tabernacle choir and BYU football. Read the story and do some research because I’m not retelling it all.

Last week, Romney attempted to make a comparison between himself and Jack Kennedy. Where’s Lloyd Bentsen when you really need him? Actually, it’s nice to see others caught that one and his comparison might actually backfire.

There aren’t many religions that make a bigger deal about authority (especially spiritual authority) than the LDS church. They have a very strict hierarchy and until fairly recently, the authority of their leadership was backed up by some serious blood oaths taken within the temple as part of their official marriage and initiation ceremonies. It’s difficult to get more serious than swearing to pull your tongue out by its roots and disembowel yourself rather than reveal the secrets or repudiate the leadership. That’s not to say Mormons are not good people. In fact, they really are often the salt of the earth folks that are hard working and honest. They have very high moral standards that are second to none and are characterized by extremely tight family bonds. These are the folks you want in your classrooms, hospitals, and pretty much everywhere else where you want moral, hard working and intelligent people. So why not President of the United States?

In order to answer that, you need to consider my title question. Would you vote for David Koresh? Would you vote for a follower of David Koresh? Because these two leaders have a lot in common, not the least o which is a pretty powerful handle on how to assert authority. We’ll throw Jim Jones in the pile, just for kicks ( this link has a fun quiz for you at the end).

I’m not going to question Romney’s morality, leadership or experience. But I do have questions about his judgment based on following this one religion that has made a martyr out of a Koresh-like character and has founded an entire religion from a book written by this same fellow that asserts the Native Americans are descendants of a lost tribe of Israelites. Why they failed to retain knowledge of the wheel is still one of many unsolved mysteries. But here is this fellow who believes and follows such teachings in addition to the Bible, who wants to be President of the United States. Should we vote for him if he is an otherwise good guy? How gullible is he? Has he ever taken a blood oath?

I don’t know, but these are some interesting questions.

 

These characters also illustrate some of the dangers of authority gone amok, as well as when one guy thinks he knows it all and leads everyone else astray. Fear and intimidation are not adequate substitutes for some actual caring, compassion and good works. It also illustrates the importance of a good and sound theology. People should be encouraged to examine the facts for themselves and make sound decisions based on the facts. It is when people are enjoined to NOT read something or forbidden to ask questions that one enters some really flaky territory. I give Romney high marks for trying to come out, but there are some significant deductions because he does not address some of the really creepy and totalitarian aspects of his religion. By the time Jack Kennedy was running, most Americans pretty much understood and accepted the fact that the reach of the Vatican and its strictures was pretty limited compared to the consumerist culture of the U.S. Whether or not that is true for the LDS church remains to be seen.

 

D.

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17 Responses to “Would you vote for David Koresh?”

  1. johnnypeepers Says:

    “It also illustrates the importance of a good and sound theology”

    Do me a favor fella, when you identify the good and sound theology shoot me a line. I am flummoxed in my attempt to find the good in any of them. I worry that my soul may be hanging in the balance until it is revealed to me.

  2. FTN Says:

    I don’t know, I’m thinking there are probably a few people around these parts that would really like Koresh’s stance on gun control issues.

  3. Tom Allen Says:

    The analogy to Kennedy is apt; I’m old enough to remember hearing the adults talk about the concerns about a President who would “answer to the Pope” instead of the concerns of Americans. One could argue that followers of the RC church are also involved in an “invented” religion.

    Of course, that concern could also apply to anyone following a church after Martin Luther, couldn’t it?

    Yes, Mormonism has some weirdness – but to outsiders, it’s no weirder than much of what’s already written in the Bible or Torah. Frankly, it’s my opinion that what weirds people out the most is that Mormonism is new, relative to the other major world religions. I mean, who the hell follows a religion that’s only a couple of hundred years old, instead of one of those nice, established ones that are all over the place?

  4. Xian Husband Says:

    The problem with the Mormons is, relating this to what I wrote yesterday a few threads down, that they are a community united by belief in a lie. They do not have the Truth, so they are not “Church” and do not have the Spirit. If they were united with the Truth their authority structure would be doing good in protecting the Truth. As it is, it is protecting a lie and deceiving people.

    But this also demonstrates the danger of the flip-side of the coin we’ve been discussing. The leaders can’t do it all without the flock anymore than the flock can do it all without the leaders. We all need each other. That is the main issue I have with the Catholic church — it is the clergy telling the laity “I don’t need you.” Which is just as incorrect as deciding all leadership and authority in the church is bad and needs to be thrown out. It’s, in the end, the exact same thing: some denying they need the gifts that belong to others.

    Private study and devotion and asking questions is in no way incompatible with Christian leadership and authority. We should be like the Bereans, who listened to Paul, but searched the scriptures themselves to see if what he said was correct.

    As for the election and stuff, eh, God is the one who sets up kings and removes them. His Will will be done as it always is. I have faith that what needs to happen will happen, so I don’t really worry about that stuff too much.

  5. Desmond Jones Says:

    Interesting question, altho I don’t suppose that I’d have all that much trouble voting for Romney (tho I don’t know that he’d be my first choice). Heck, us Catholics are used to having the president be someone we don’t see eye-to-eye with religiously. And, if I’m supposed to be worried about a Mormon being taken in by a lie, what about the several candidates who’ve manifestly fallen for other lies that aren’t even ‘quasi-Christian’? My only reservation would be the ‘advertising’ benefit that the Mormons would get from having ‘one of their own’ in the White House. Besides, I can still remember when his dad was the governor of my state, and that wasn’t awful. . .

  6. Emily Says:

    Well, Digger, I haven’t been over here for a while, and, wow, I obviously missed a war of words.

    At the risk of being jumped on by XH, I actually think you could benefit from some time out from church and/or continuing with all your thinking and critiquing. Sometimes we need to get away from a familiar environment that has become stifling. And there is not much point in persisisting with something that is clearly not working for you. I’ve been really noticing a lot of spiritual and emotionally growth in you in teh last year, and sometimes that kind of growth does take some alone time and disengagement.

    I think maybe people could be a little more trusting that God is working within you and will help you to kind of feel your way into the right path. The very fact that you are working so hard on all this shows that you care a whole lot more than many people who just float along to church because they always have. I am not very good at faith, but actually I do have faith that your good intentions and good brain and good heart will lead you to the right place.

  7. Digger Jones Says:

    In thinking about how to answer you, Johnny, I had more questions than answers. Does ones theology remain forever static or does it improve and change over time? Does it evolve? I’m inclined to think it does as our understanding improves. Humans have a propensity towards irrational thinking, so it stands to reason there’s going to be some crazy things out there. Religion does not try to answer “how” so much as “why.” Why are we here? Why do we find it so hard to be “good.” Is being good even important? There is a morality built into us all. No human society on earth values cowardice, stealing and murder. Why? These are certainly things we see in the world of animals all the time and yet humans seem to have some understanding of right and wrong. Even if we don’t always follow it, we recognize such as violations of our inner moral code. Why? Answering those questions is about getting to a personal theology that provides answers and hopefully some solutions.

    FTN, I’m sitting here trying to imagine Confused Husband hunting ducks or Xi hunting deer with a .50 cal machine gun.

    Tom, I suppose there is more legitimacy associated with the older and ancient religions as these are more culturally familiar. We have the luxury of having historical background on the founder, Joseph Smith, that we don’t have on Abraham. to someone not oriented toward the spiritual, all of this controversy would look strange.

    XH, for someone who goes on and on about authority, duty and obligations, you certainly have a cavalier attitude about your American citizenship! Paul would not have thought like this, as he invoked his Roman citizenship more than once. Participating in and voting and being informed of our electoral process is your civic duty! Paul knew who his officials were and knew his rights and obligations! You go on and on about Christians wanting to do what they want with no responsibilities, and here you are enjoying a (relatively) free society while sitting on your butt, not even putting in the minimum effort in order to vote! While God ultimately decides, as in Deuteronomy 17, He also enjoins specific obligations on the people on their own choosing V 15. Here, it’s up to us to choose. Don’t you see the hypocrisy in this?

    When reading about the election of ’68, it is interesting to note that religion was hardly an issue at all. Granted, the country had some real huge other issues like racism and the Vietnam war and general social unrest. Um, yeah, I get what you say about politicians adopting lies, Desmond. This is a guy who not only took the blood oaths but presided as a priest/bishop and got others to do so. Interesting take on it, tho, from a fellow religious minority.

    Emily, I was wondering if you would find your way over here! To me, it makes more sense to put the majority of my spiritual growth in the hands of God (since He’s the one Who ultimately wants the relationship), than it does for XH to put God in charge of U.S. politics (which ultimately is in the hands of people). I’m partially disengaged just to sort it out, instead of having whatever church leader sort it out for me. That’s ultimately my beef with church leadership: they want to tell people what they should be thinking and do so not just with knowledge but with intimidation. To a lesser degree, a lot of people want to be told what they should think.

    D.

  8. Xian Husband Says:

    Paul used his Roman citizenship for the furtherance of preaching of the Word, and to protect his own person — in order that he could further the preaching of the Word. He used ALL things for the advancement of the Kingdom of Heaven. But he didn’t use it to, say, try and politically alter society.

    The civic duty you speak of is the duty of citizens. If you are a Christian then you are not a citizen of any earthly nation, but a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. Your government is not a Congress and President, but a King whose name is Jesus Christ. As for this world, we are to consider ourselves as aliens and strangers in a foreign land — as Peter tells us.

    If the realities of this world give you advantages that are useful for God’s kingdom, then by all means use them. But the question is: where do you consider your citizenship to lie? On earth or in heaven? And, if in heaven, then why get involved in the affairs of the world — in the affairs of a nation that you do not consider your home? When you choose to engage in such civic affairs you are making a statement about what you consider your true home.

    I mean, if you are on vacation in France, say, you generally don’t go around trying to be politically active to change the laws and government and such. It’s not your nation, your citizenship is elsewhere. While what goes on there DOES effect you while you stay there, changing it usually isn’t your place. Because it isn’t your home.

    Besides, the book of Daniel, the book of Isaiah, the book of Jeremiah, the book of Acts, the book of Romans, etc all make it perfectly clear that civil governments are all established by God anyway. Nobody has such power without being personally given it by God — and He gives it to who He will. Nebuchadnezzar forgot that and God made him go insane and eat grass like a cow for seven years.

    So, nothing can happen in the election that God doesn’t already want anyway. Our votes aren’t what determines it, it is the will of God. If you vote, then, because you are afraid of what happens if the “wrong guy” wins, or you are voting to try and change things, etc then your very act of voting is a statement of a lack of faith in the Lord and His sovereignty. And whatever is not from faith is sin. Not that there aren’t valid and faithful reasons to vote, but doing it because you are worried about the outcome is not one of them.

  9. FTN Says:

    Except this world IS my home. God created the world, and Jesus came to save it. God cares an awful lot about this place that you think you are vacationing in. Do you think he invested so much in a place that’s just a temporal vacation spot?

    I’m not sure why we’re arguing this issue again. It’s really kind of silly. I could come up with all sorts of arguments and analogies about other “worldly” things that I bet you care about, but I seriously doubt that it would do much good.

    I’m actually wondering, if all civiil governments are established by God the way he wants, why he had the Israelites go in and destroy so many of them in wars. No doubt you’ll have a good answer for me. I suppose we could talk Hitler and the Third Reich here, and whether or not any other country should have ever intervened with them, but perhaps I’ll let that one pass.

    “Nothing can happen … that God doesn’t already want anyway.”

    And do you really want to use that argument? Are you sure you want to go there?

  10. Xian Husband Says:

    This world is your home?

    All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. – Heb 11:13 on those who lived by faith

    Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world… – I Pet 2:11

    But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. – II Pet 3:13

    Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. – II Cor 5:6-8

    Civil governments established by God:

    Daniel said,
    “Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever,
    For wisdom and power belong to Him.
    “It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
    He removes kings and establishes kings;
    He gives wisdom to wise men
    And knowledge to men of understanding.
    – Dan 2:20,21

    While the word was in the king’s mouth, a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is declared: sovereignty has been removed from you, and you will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling place will be with the beasts of the field You will be given grass to eat like cattle, and seven periods of time will pass over you until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes.’ – Dan 4:31,32

    Why do the nations conspire
    and the peoples plot in vain?

    The kings of the earth take their stand
    and the rulers gather together
    against the LORD
    and against his Anointed One.

    “Let us break their chains,” they say,
    “and throw off their fetters.”

    The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
    the Lord scoffs at them.
    – Ps 2:1-4

    The LORD foils the plans of the nations;
    he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.

    But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever,
    the purposes of his heart through all generations.
    – Ps 33:10,11

    The mind of man plans his way,
    But the LORD directs his steps.
    – Pr 16:9

    The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
    He turns it wherever He wishes.
    – Pr 21:1

    When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. For he says:
    ” ‘By the strength of my hand I have done this,
    and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
    I removed the boundaries of nations,
    I plundered their treasures;
    like a mighty one I subdued their kings.

    As one reaches into a nest,
    so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
    as men gather abandoned eggs,
    so I gathered all the countries;
    not one flapped a wing,
    or opened its mouth to chirp.’ ”

    Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it,
    or the saw boast against him who uses it?
    As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up,
    or a club brandish him who is not wood!
    – Is 10:12-15

    Remember the former things, those of long ago;
    I am God, and there is no other;
    I am God, and there is none like me.

    I make known the end from the beginning,
    from ancient times, what is still to come.
    I say: My purpose will stand,
    and I will do all that I please.

    From the east I summon a bird of prey;
    from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
    What I have said, that will I bring about;
    what I have planned, that will I do.
    – Is 46:9-11

    Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. -Acts 4:27,28

    “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.” – Acts 17:24-26

    For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” – Rom 9:17

    Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. … He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. – Rom 13:1,2,4-7

    In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. -Eph 1:11

    There’s more, but that’s sufficient I think. Asking questions as to why God did what He did is another question, but to those who believe in revelation God’s sovereignty is unquestionable. As is the fact that God does not make mistakes, so no matter what He has chosen to do it was the best possible choice to be made. To doubt that is to doubt the Lord Himself. Which is not horribly far from blasphemy.

  11. Emily Says:

    Well, honestly, XH, that really takes the cake. To argue that somehow God wanted all those Jews murdered during the Holocaust, all those Africans dying in famine and wars, and for everything that has happened to be somehow the best thing that could have happened is not just wrong, but pretty damned silly.

    In fact, in my view, that reflects so poorly on God that that is blasphemy!

    By the way, that verse about giving everyone (including the authorities) what you owe to them, to my mind, would cover voting. If you live in a democracy, that is the system you live under, and you should be honoring it by participating in it. Being a citizen of heaven does not mean that you are not also the citizen of a country, however temporarily.

  12. Xian Husband Says:

    First, this isn’t so much me who is making this claim, it is God. That’s pretty clear from the Bible. God is telling us, unequivocally, that He is the one in charge. So, if you don’t believe it, you are left with believing that either God doesn’t know what He’s talking about or that He’s a liar. Or that none of what is written is true so you can make up your own God in your head.

    As for the bad things that happen, God can certainly use even evil things to do His will. If your God can’t do that then your God is too small. I mean, what, do you think God’s saying, “Well, I tried to stop it, but I guess I lost that one.”

    God doesn’t lose battles. Nothing therefore happens without his sufferance, and nothing happens that does not conform to His eternal and divine plan.

    “But people died,” you say. Yeah, a lot of people died in Egypt when He was freeing Israel from slavery. That was God. A lot of people died when God was giving Israel their homeland. That was God. A whole lot of people died when God punished Israel and Judah through the Assyrians and Babylonians — and that was God, too.

    In fact, God told them explicitly through the prophets that what He was going to do to them to punish them was like nothing that had ever happened before or would ever happen. That He would kill them with plagues and those that survived would be killed by the sword and those that survived THAT would die by famine. That the famine would become so severe that mothers would eat their own children to stay alive. He told them that was coming (and it did come) and that it was all His doing.

    From a merely material and human perspective death is this massively big deal. From God’s immortal and spiritual perspective, it’s not nearly as big. He uses it, just like He uses everything else.

    We are promised in Romans that, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” Yet while Paul wrote this Christians were being persecuted and tortured, and not too many years later Nero would attempt to wipe out the church, starting with beheading Paul himself. Works for the good? Yes, the ultimate, spiritual good. What happens here, on this Earth, is near meaningless compared to that. And suffering is often for our good. That’s the message of II Timothy anyway.

    Nero — the closest thing to pure evil I believe this world has ever seen — tried to wipe out the church with torture and death. He would crucify Christians and then, while they were still alive, would light them on fire and use them as torches to light his garden parties. And through this, the church grew like crazy and ended up conquering all of Roman society.

    If anyone tells you that because “God loves you” that nothing bad will ever happen then they are selling you a bill of goods. All things work for our good, but for our ultimate, spiritual good. And often that includes making us suffer so as to prove our faith.

    Oh, to be counted worthy of suffering for the name of Christ!

    And it is all still Him in control of it all. This is the same reason why I really don’t worry at all about things like global warming or world-wide economic collapse, etc. Not that things like this might not happen, but that I KNOW who is in control and so I KNOW that if they do happen it is for His purpose and for my ultimate good. So, I can live my life without anxiety. Because I simply trust in Him. Which is what this whole “faith” thing is about, anyway.

  13. FTN Says:

    I’m not so bothered that you might think God can use other people to do things politically and socially, as I am that you think God can’t use YOU by voting or being concerned about your country, your environment, and your world. That just seems rather silly.

    I’m also assuming by your arguments that you’ve never been to a doctor, nor have you allowed your wife or children to go to one. And don’t try to tell me that it’s somehow “different.”

  14. trueself Says:

    I know that this will be discounted as oversimplification, but this whole discussion about God being in control and so forth makes me think of the story told about the man whose home is threatened by a flood.

    As the waters are rising, his neighbors encourage him to leave as they are doing, but he says, “I don’t need to leave. I have faith that God will protect me.” The waters continue to rise and he is forced to the second floor of his house. He is looking out his window and praying for God to take care of him. A boat comes by, and the man in the boat asks him to get in to be taken to safety. Again the man refuses claiming that God will take care of him. The waters rise even higher, and the man is forced onto his roof. A helicopter approaches and he hears a voice over the loudspeaker telling him to grab the rope ladder they are descending for him. Once again he invokes his faith in God and turns down their offer. Finally, the waters rise so high they cover his house, and he is swept away and drowns. When he gets to heaven he is confused and a little miffed and asks God, “Why is it that when I proclaim my faith in You repeatedly, You chose not to rescue me from the flood?” God’s reply, “I tried to rescue you, three times. I sent your neighbor to warn you of the impending flood. I sent a boat to rescue you. I even sent a helicopter to save you. Each time you refused my assistance.”

    Now it seems to me that anyone who refuses to take part in elections is turning away from the very things that can be utilized to do God’s work. Is it not our responsibility to support leadership that will lead in a way pleasing to God? Just think if all Christians chose not to participate in the political process. It is hard to imagine if only non-Christians were to be in positions of authority (although now that I think about it they could hardly do worse than what we have now).

    I believe God is much bigger and greater than to have made us all puppets on strings. He gave us free will for a reason. He put us here on Earth for a reason. He intends for us to use this time on Earth to learn from our mistakes, to come into an appreciation for what is waiting for us for eternity. He is omniscent and knows all that will happen. He is all powerful. That does not mean that He exerts his power at all times. He allows us to make mistakes, small ones and huge ones. He allows us the freedom to heed the world and the devil instead of Him if that is our choice. He never intended for us to sit back and do nothing while we are here. He intended us to learn and grow and gain wisdom. We will not do that if we choose to sit back and just wait for God.

  15. Desmond Jones Says:

    Well, gosh, everybody, we’ve been down this road with our dear friend XH before, more than a year ago. Go check out his blog from November 7, 2006. I left my comment on a follow-up post entitled ‘Note’ on November 17. My position hasn’t changed much since then, and, it would seem, neither has yours.

    I will say, tho, that your position isn’t quite the obvious, ‘no-brainer’ ‘Christian’ position that you seem to take it to be. Christians of good will and sound mind have taken various positions thru the centuries on questions of government and the responsibilities of citizens, and I don’t think it’s quite appropriate to hold one of them up as ‘The Christian Position’.

  16. diggerjones Says:

    Now voting is a SIN?

    Jeremiah, Isaiah and Daniel and every other prophet was keenly aware of the geo-politacal landscape. Yeah God uses it for his purposes. The number of people in the Bible who work for the government (Jew and nonjew) are legion! Daniel worked for the government! Nehemiah worked for the government! Esther was married to the king! They all used thei positions in order to fight the good fight.

    Silliness.

    The only people that separate themselves from the civil authorities (in order to BECOME civil authorities)are folks like David Koresh, Brighmam Young and others mentioned in the article above. That’s how ridiculous this is. The Biblical figures used the government as part of the plan and all of them would have VOTED if they had the vote. Except for the pharisees who viewed any entanglements with the gentiles as being “dirty”. Which is decidedly NOT what Jesus did! The tax collectors were reviled not just for their thieving ways but because they were working for the gentile government. And yet Jesus welcomed all who who repented!

    I’ll agree that our citizenship on Earth is temporary, and we often behave as if it is otherwise. But this is where we physically live for the time being and to pretend otherwise is just delusional thinking. we still have to earn a living, pay taxes and and we all want our leaders to look after our best interest. XH, voting is the way we in our system hold such leaders ACCOUNTABLE! It’s crazy how you discount that in light of all your talk about accountability.

    D.

  17. diggerjones Says:

    FYI, for those of you looking for a view of where XH is coming from, I found this site somewhat helpful:

    http://www.reveal.org/

    I stumbled into it while looking for the Reveal Video by Greg Hawkins. XH may denounce the ICC as heretics, but this site gives a real candid look at his home denomination (which incidentally turns out to have a few roots in common with the Mormons) and you’ll see his theology is pegged pretty well. XH is more likely to accept extra-Biblical creeds and documents than his fellow mainliners but this quote summed it up nicely:

    “A common saying among them is that, ‘We speak where the Bible speaks, and keep silent where it is silent.”

    “We are also of opinion that as the Divine word is equally binding upon all, so all lie under an equal obligation to be bound by it, and it alone; and not by any human interpretation of it; and that, therefore, no man has a right to judge his brother, except in so far as he manifestly violates the express letter of the law.”

    — Thomas Campbell
    “Declaration and Address”, 1809

    He’s been somewhat vocal in some areas where he disagrees, but generally in comments he tends to follow the party line pretty faithfully. In his own blog you’ll see more remarkable departures and it is equally remarkable that he’s managed to present some of them to his own church without landing in some hot water.

    It all looked eerily familiar like I’ve been there before.

    D.

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