Pointing to a place holding post on my blogger site. This is sort fo where I’ve been headed for.
I’ve noticed that almost everyone commenting has had these very pre-concieved notions about church and worship that may be extra Biblical. It may be time to think outside of the box a bit. Or get back to what we see in the Bible.
I’m in my busy season, but I also need to get to the discussion on authority and leadership which so much of this discussion has centered around.
D.
Unsolicited Advice: Wordpress Version 
May 3, 2007 at 1:14 pm |
“I’ve noticed that almost everyone commenting has had these very pre-concieved notions about church and worship that may be extra Biblical. It may be time to think outside of the box a bit. Or get back to what we see in the Bible.”
I would have to agree with you here. I am at a place where I don’t feel like I “fit in” anywhere I go these days. I question everything now. Why we do the things the way we do in churches, what the early church did, etc. I have found that the western church looks almost nothing like the first century church.
I found some interesting things on this site: http://www.vision.org . It has some very interesting articles about the history of the early church, and how things have shifted into what it is today. They also sent us three DVD’s, one called “Cheating God Out of Christianity”, “The Message To The Seven Churches”, and “The Search For the Real Paul”. They were free of charge if you request them and so is their magazine. (Freewill offerings are accepted if you can afford it.)
I think there is a growing discontent for the current traditions in the churches. I think God is the orinator of it, and it is He who is causing us to re-examine where we are, and where we need to be.
I don’t really know what I am. I don’t like labels, but if people want to label me, I guess that’s their perogative. I’m kind’ve a mix between all sorts of things. That’s why I don’t fit in anywhere. If I go to this church, I won’t agree with this or that, and at another church I won’t agree with something they do, etc.
It’s so frustrating at times… I wish everything was more “clear cut” in scripture, and it wouldn’t have to be learned as we progress spiritually….know what I mean? But, I guess that’s what makes us mature, is having to figure things out (with God’s leading) over time and becoming more and more Godly, more and more able to rightly divide the Scriptures, etc. But I guess I’m rambling on now (on your blog!) So I’ll stop now.
Thanks for linking to my blog on your other blog, by the way. I don’t know how you “found” me, but I’m looking forward to future correspondence.
Blessings,
Jen
May 3, 2007 at 10:48 pm |
It depends, I guess, on how you define “extra-Biblical.” The New Testament writings were all written ad hoc in particular historical situations and were all written to people who were already inculcated in the church traditions and doctrines. Because of that, the writers assumed that the readers would already have a certain set of knowledge.
For instance, in Acts it records that Paul and Barnabus appointed elders in every city. What are elders? It doesn’t say. It assumed that the reader is already in a church and therefore already knows what elders are. So the reader would say, “Ah-ha, I know what elders are because I deal with one on a continuing basis, and this shows me how such situations were started.”
The problem is that we, today, often read these things the same way. We read it and assume that we know what he’s talking about just like the early church reader did. We have our own conceptions of these things that we bring to the text, as did the early reader, but are they the same?
That’s harder to answer because the entire New Testament already assumes that you DO know what they mean. There is nothing in the New Testament written as a church manual in a vacuum that defines all these things and sets everything in order — nothing in the New Testament to parallel Leviticus in the Old.
And the concepts assumed here matter because it goes to the very heart of what you are talking about — church and worship. Is what we today assume — knowing that every tradition is assuming different things — anywhere near what the early church did?
To answer that, you HAVE to look extra-Biblically. You have to get to know Jewish culture. You have to get to know the non-canonical writings. We can see bits and pieces by reading between the lines in the New Testament, but that isn’t anywhere near sufficient as they were not really written for such things.
This is one of the many reasons why the early church writers stressed the importance of church tradition. Tertullian (circa 200 AD) said the scriptures contain in them everything necessary to be a Christian, but that people can interpret them to mean pretty much anything, so tradition was necessary to make sure you get the right interpretation.
Which begs the question, then: what did the church look like in Tertullian’s day? What were the traditions he was referring to? Shouldn’t that matter?
Extra-Biblical but not anti-Biblical as it gives the decoder ring so to speak to figure out what these things IN the Bible really mean. Paul and the other writers throw around a lot of terms, assuming the reader knew what they meant. The only way we can know how to define them is to look at how the early church defined them.
If you do this, what you will end up with will definately look different from most, if not all, current world churches. But it will probably also look a bit different from what you are assuming right now as well.
May 4, 2007 at 12:37 pm |
So nice to hear from you, Jen! I agree that God is moving in preparation for something significant. Are we headed for an era of persecution in the West? I don’t know, but it’s difficult to understand why or how a movement that originated in persecution would now crop up in societies so utterly free of religious standards and rules.
I agree XH, that our picture is not altogether clear of what was going on in the first century church. Tradition is one of those 4 parts of the Wesleyan quadrilateral, with scripture, reason and experience being the other 3. And I know you probably don’t particularly trust those last two.
D.
May 5, 2007 at 1:09 am |
Thanks, diggerj,
Seems like it to me… I hope and pray otherwise, but there needs to be a clearer distinction from the true church from the false, and God knows what we truly need. I trust His sovereign ways enough that I would rather suffer persecution than ride the church pew to Hell, wouldn’t you? Today, there’s “your truth”, “my truth”, and on and on the heresies go. I just know that it is high time to really dig deeper into the Word of God than ever, and “make our calling and election sure”…amen?
XH, I agree with you. We must look at Jewish culture and learn how to eggegite (sp?) the Scriptures the correct way. It’s funny you say that too, because I have been feeling a drawing in that area to learn more from them. Why is it that today’s average believer seems so far from Jewish culture, and why does there seem to be such a huge divide and separation from God’s chosen nation and the church? Apostle Paul said that God grafted in the Gentiles to “bring the Jews to jealousy.” Are we? Think hard about that for a minute. The Jews are supposed to look at us, and be jealous!! They should want what we have, but do they? Are they being prevented from being saved because of our not bringing them to jealousy by such a walk with God that makes them jealous? These are things I’ve really been pondering lately.
May 5, 2007 at 1:12 am |
One thing I forgot to mention….
When I said about there being a great divide between “God’s chosen nation” and the church, what I mean is the Messianic Jewish community and the Gentile community of believers. It seems that we are so very different, that we may even think them “strange”….or at least I have felt that way in the past, but I don’t any longer. Now I feel more drawn to them than ever, because I really want to learn from them. They are the true branches, after all….we’re the “wild” one that was grafted in!